Talia’s Story: My Life or Death Choice

Susan (0:02): Sometimes an inner conflict means making a choice between life and death. How did Talia choose the direction that could mean she lived or died? Have you ever felt torn experience that inner struggle of clutching, needs, yearnings and belief, not a fight with others, a fight within yourself. It’s confusing, it’s painful, it’s inner conflict.

Caitlin (0:34): I’m Caitlin,

Susan (0:35): I’m Susan,

James (0:35): I’m James. We’re coaches with different areas of expertise and a shared passion for helping everyone understand and navigate torn feelings. Welcome to the torn podcast where we share stories, resources and hope around all things inner conflict. This episode dives into a real life story of inner conflict. From our research interviews. To maintain confidentiality, we’ve removed identifying details, and the story is narrated by an actor.

Caitlin (1:15): A quick warning that this is a deeply emotional story involving life threatening cancer. So you may wish to consider where and when you listen.

Talia (1:31): I had a breast cancer diagnosis. At first, things seemed simple, but then it turned out, there were more aggressive and invasive cancers. By the time, they knew that the treatment I faced was going to be a very challenging journey.

Susan (1:53): When Talia was diagnosed with advanced cancer, she urgently needed to decide which direction her treatment should take the traditional medical direction or an alternative? There were compelling reasons for either choice, including whether she wanted to survive or not.

Talia (2:15): The doctors offered me a double mastectomy,

Talia (2:18): followed by chemotherapy, radiotherapy and immunotherapy. The journey ahead of that just seemed terrifying. I was completely torn about whether to say yes or or try the alternative route.

Susan (2:39): So what I’m feeling and thinking is health issues come to us all, but the impact when we know that these health issues are serious, and all the mastectomy, the chemotherapy, the radiotherapy, the immunotherapy, all the treatments laid out for us and we don’t know what to do. I’m wondering how you Caitlin and you James are reacting to Talia is very, very strong statement.

Caitlin (3:10): I just get that heart sink feeling. You know when, when you get a diagnosis like this, it must just be complete and utter overwhelm,

Susan (3:23): shock, and you know,

Caitlin (3:26): where do you even begin? It’s like your your whole frame of of thinking, of being, of your world, of what you do and who you are, might be crumbling as you hear that.

James (3:39): It is that tearing back of the curtain, isn’t it? It’s a switch in your life is never the same again. Having that we could all be carrying something around with us, but we don’t know. And then the minute we get the diagnosis, everything changes forever. I think that must be really, really hard,

Susan (4:06): and I’m realizing that it’s really hard, not only for the person, for us, for Talia, but for those around us. It’s a stone thrown into the water and the ripples are going out. And one of the things that I know we’ll discover as we listen to talia’s story is the impact on other people and the impact on her of other people’s reactions. So let’s hear a little more of talia’s story,

Talia (4:41): just as we were coming out of covid, I had problems in my breast, and it turned out to be cancer, and I had a few operations and something that just still wasn’t right. So I got a second opinion. I had further testing. I. And they found more frightening cancers, which then led to a change in the treatment they were suggesting. For me, it became clear that I was heading for mastectomy, but now also chemotherapy and radiotherapy and immunotherapy. Was just facing a very difficult journey, and I had just very little time to work out what I wanted to do.

Susan (5:32): What I’m hearing here, and I’ve heard it myself in my own clients, if they come to me with a sudden shock, particularly around health, or indeed around a relationship, is a kind of bereavement journey. You know, there’s often denial, first denial, and then fear completely takes over and grief, you know, grief for a life that you said James is changed forever, but fear of, will life change or will life end? It’s a very, very primitive response, and as Talia said, the mind stops. What can she do with that?

Caitlin (6:18): I think it’s so challenging, because when that fear response takes over, that’s our sort of primitive brain right, launching us into a fight, flight, freeze type of response, just trying to deal with a threat that seems imminent and you lose track of that prefrontal cortex, that higher level brain that helps you regulate emotions and bring some rationality online. Yeah.

James (6:55): Another pressure that adds to that, I think, is the urgency that once doctors have diagnosed, they want to act straight away, so come on, let’s go. This is the plan, and to find space for yourself. To say is that my plan? Can I get a second a third opinion? Can I talk to the people who love me and know me precisely at the moment that you are feeling that primitive fear response that is really hard and debilitating. I think

Susan (7:33): one of the things that we we’ve certainly found in our research around in a conflict, is that however much the mind, the monkey mind, is rushing around, the first thing to do is to calm and it’s so hard. It’s so hard when you’re faced with this sort of real drama in your life. So yes, as you say, James, talking to other people, looking after yourself, finding as much information as you can, of course, and that is possible with health, but it is the entire unknowable, but looking after yourself first, I think

Caitlin (8:18): I love what You’re pointing to there. Susan, like, what is your emergency emotional regulation toolkit, right? And one of the frameworks that you taught me, which could be helpful is, think, feel, act and interact, right? How can you turn on your brain and get information your thinking mind, feel. How can you move with and through the emotions act? What can you do in your body to begin to allow emotions to move through you? Can you walk stretch? Do you have different bodily activities that help you and interact. How can you get support through others?

Susan (9:07): And so often that the feel part of that takes over and everything else stops. And certainly myself, I don’t know whether either of you have shared this, there’s a sort of false courage. You know, no, I can cope with this, and you don’t like self to feel, and then you’re cutting off, as you’ve just pointed out, Kaitlin, a quarter of your resources. So when faced with taking this sort of life changing or even life limiting direction, to make sure you do all four of those. So let’s hear more from Talia.

Talia (9:49): And there’s a there’s a backstory here. The previous year, my husband Mark died. Suddenly, he was an incredibly steady and kind and wise human being, very much into alternative medicine and alternative therapies both of us had seen a naturopath for ages, and then he died, and I went into shock and grief, and wasn’t through that. When I was diagnosed with cancer.

James (10:43): Isn’t that horrendous? Horrendous? The double whammy,

Susan (10:49): yeah, the double whammy of losing somebody and then almost losing yourself, just recovering so soon afterwards and later. We’re going to deal in more detail with how Mark’s death influenced Talia, but to have both happening together,

Caitlin (11:14): what do you think is helpful for somebody to lean on in such a place of absolute crisis?

Susan (11:21): I’m getting a picture of somebody with their feet on the ground and the whole of the rest of their body sort of buffeted in the wind. And while I get that picture, I also get a picture of people gathering around so that however far they lean, they’re not going to fall. People are so important in a situation like that, and although there are no there’s no way to say that Talia wasn’t suffering here. I’m really, really hoping that she had people around her to look after her, and that those people were able to stay when Mark’s death turned to her own possible death,

James (12:10): yeah, and we need the right people, and we need to be able to Say this is the kind of support I need, because these are extremely emotive things, and everyone will have an opinion and want to help by expressing their opinion, and sometimes that comes Across as support, and sometimes it adds more pressure. So as much as there’s support, there needs to be space within that support to say, I want support this way. Just be with me. Don’t tell me what to do or hold it lightly or whatever,

Caitlin (13:01): and that’s a burden on her right like that’s a that’s an additional thing that she’s got to probably struggle to articulate. But one thing we could offer to supporters who are listening is as a first step when somebody’s reality seems to be crumbling, rather than offering advice and direction in the first instance, how can you just affirm their reality? Affirm the truth of who they are and the challenge of what they’re going through? As a first step, this is real. You are real. We know you. We are here for you. You know we will listen and be by your side through this process. Susan, I’d love to hear your your take on that first step of a supporter.

Susan (13:57): Yes, because we are, we as torn project are hoping to help not just those who are torn, but those who are supporting the torn. Totally agree with what both of you said, and I think it’s difficult, because obviously anybody who is ready and willing and eager to support is also suffering their own inner struggle here, you know, how do I best support and what do I do with my own grief and fear around the person who is ill? So let’s move on to hearing a little bit more about Talia ‘s inner struggles. I mean, you know, from the outside it may seem obvious, he’s frightened. Where’s the where’s the inner conflict here, let’s hear what it actually is.

Talia (14:56): I get the diagnosis, and. I get told what the treatments are going to be, and it is just such, just a massive deal. So I then I get in touch with a naturopath that Mark and I used to see, and I say, I’ve got cancer. Can you help? Or do you know someone who can help? And she says that her husband used to have, used to have cancer, and was treated with light therapy by, yeah, an alternative therapist in Germany, and that for him, it’s worked. And she points me to someone who does that same therapy, but in the UK. So I had a few sessions of it to see what it was like. But that is when, that’s when the real conflict started. You know, Should I, should I carry on on the medical route or go down the alternative route? And I was, I was absolutely torn.

Caitlin (16:06): So now she has a sense of there being at least two possible directions, and that inner conflict heightens,

Susan (16:18): yes, and she has the pull to, should I do it, Mark’s way, or should I do it the way that presumably all her doctors are telling her to take and, yeah, she was absolutely torn. And my guess is that those around her are as well. I like what?

Caitlin (16:41): How you say that? Should I do it Mark’s way? And that immediately makes me think of the inclination in grief to be closer to the person that you’ve lost somehow. What are the ways that I can get closer to mark?

Susan (16:57): Maybe this is one, and it’s going to also be there the grief of her loss, the loss of Mark added to her own grief, the possible loss of herself. I think that’s one thing that does happen when your body’s health is vulnerable, that your own sense of self can be vulnerable too. And what do you decide? What do you do? Who do you please in this situation? Do you please yourself? To go with your own instincts. What are your own instincts? It’s very, very troubling time.

James (17:37): Yes, and some of the medical treatment sounds incredibly intrusive

Susan (17:47): to the body.

James (17:50): Some of it comes across as deep and long, lasting attacks on the body in order to get rid of the cancer, and thereafter, the body may recover. That’s a very, very difficult prospect to head towards.

Caitlin (18:15): Yeah, and in all of this, I’m I’m hearing her action and her desire to get information and opinions and stories and to try something out. You know, I see a lot of courage in moving something forward in this little segment.

Susan (18:37): I think once the fear has well resolved, well diminished, to the point where one can’t think. One can move from only feeling to thinking. We’ve certainly found through the research that the next step needs to be finding the knowledge, finding the information, maybe reading round, maybe talking to other people who’ve had that experience, and, of course, remembering that nobody’s experience is the same. So you can learn from others. But that may not be right for you looking inside yourself. And my guess is that at this point, Tyler was looking inside herself and finding mark. Mark’s voice will still be clear in her mind, Mark’s wishes, Mark’s beliefs, Mark’s values, we forefront, and how is she relating to that and relating to what she feels is right for her at this point, she probably is very unclear. Even after gathering information and gathering information, she’s probably very unclear about what is right for her. So. So Talia next looks at well, alternative or traditional medicine, and she goes little further into finding out what she should do, what she wants to do, and what she needs to do.

Talia (20:22): At the back of my mind, I kept thinking of the medical treatments that I was being offered, and that the thought of just like have have less done to your body, I just felt I don’t want the treatments I don’t, I don’t want this done, you know, I want, I want my body to be intact, yeah, and strong. And I was, I was very tempted by the treatment that the naturopath had advised. But it was, it was so expensive, and I just couldn’t afford it. I remember reading a news story about an actress. She’d been diagnosed with the same breast cancer that I had, and she’s kind of just locked herself away and done all sorts of alternative therapies, and just rather than have chemo, and I was so envious of her, she, you know, she’s got all this wealth and the contacts to just go and do that. And I don’t, I was just so, so envious of her. And there was this other huge thing that part of me felt that I needed to go for alternative treatments, because otherwise I would be dishonoring mark not going down the alternative route felt just wrong. Somehow. I really wished I had mark there to advise me.

Susan (22:11): I’m really hearing talia’s need for, if you like, a guide in this and there’s probably one end of the extreme, the need for a guide, and at the other end of the extreme, a need for not quite so many guides, because everybody is probably telling her what they would have done in the in the same situation, I’m also hearing mixed in with this, this wonderful human but why can’t I have what other people have? Why can’t this be sorted for me, like it is with this actress who’s got all the money, this wonderful, very human envy coming through?

Caitlin (22:58): You know, there’s a book about the end of life called The Year of Magical Thinking. I think it’s Joan Didion, and this phrase, magical thinking pops to mind here, right? There’s a desire to have the crystal ball and be able to look into the future the magical thinking. What if Mark could just be here and guide me. What would he say? You know, and I’m sure that in moments like this, we are sort of thrust into our imaginations. What if I could? What if I knew? What if I had the resources of this person? How could this be different?

James (23:38): I think the piece about the memory of Mark, or dishonoring Mark, I find that really interesting. I hear how difficult it is, and yet Mark has been introduced to us as a very steady and wise companion. So I am absolutely sure that he would say to her, Do what’s right for you, without question. Put yourself first. And there’s part of this where I hear her trying to do what’s right by Mark. And I think that is very complex, and it’s it’s a sign that the natural grief process is incomplete and this shit has come at the wrong time. Please. Could I just deal with one thing at a time? But it does make everything much more complex, not to have the person in front of you, but to be attempting a dialog with your memory

Susan (24:51): of them. Oh, I love that dialog with your memory.

Caitlin (24:56): Yes. And how many of us in this kind of situation are having that? That kind of experience with our mother, our father, wise Grandma, you know, so interesting. Where are the places we go in our imaginations?

Susan (25:14): And I think one of the things that, well, I’m just remembering now is that we are focused on talia’s life and death struggle, but the need for a guide, and the looking back into the past, and that the searching for an answer that’s true of every single inner conflict, even the one where you’re trying to decide you know what to wear today or which restaurant to go to you’re looking for somebody to tell you the answer. And it’s such a natural need. There’s something else for me, which which comes up around the feelings of envy that Talia has, and that may seem like a distraction. I don’t think it is. I think all sorts of emotions can come through in the midst of an inner conflict. It’s not just about, you know, the fear or the sadness or even the anger. There will be other feelings that come through that you may be thinking, oh, you know, I shouldn’t be feeling like this. If you’re feeling it, you should be feeling it always, and the importance of feeling what we’re feeling as part of the process of working through inner conflict. So Talia has looked at the alternatives and realized that although she feels that mark would want her to go that way, or would he she can’t afford them. So now she’s going to look at the medical treatment. Let’s see what she learned and what she felt about those

Talia (27:12): when it came to the medical treatment routes, I felt there was evidence the doctors deal with this day in, day out. Science informs them that this is the way to save my life. So one in two people have cancer in the UK, and what my doctors were suggesting is just the most normal way of dealing with cancer, that it’s the most known way, tried and trusted, so alternative medicine, it will always be my preference, but traditional medicine has the evidence, so I just did not know which way to turn

Unknown Speaker (27:53): fact versus feeling.

James (27:57): The question of evidence is a really tricky and really important. Many of us have a desire for alternative medicine to be effective, but we just don’t see the same quality of evidence, and that’s really, really hard, and all of that doesn’t help her. She’s got to find a way to make a decision which is going on, what emotions, logic, hunches, conversations with her deceased partner.

Caitlin (28:30): Yeah, she’s in the thick of the confusion, I think, and there’s so much information circulating in her dialog, imagined dialog, as you put it right. And so, in a way, when we think about the process of people coming through inner conflict, we’re in this moment of of waiting for the tipping point to arrive. We’re waiting for some piece of information to somehow land her in in a more decisive place, in a place of clarity and confidence with what she’s going to do going forward.

Susan (29:10): Such an important point that about the the tipping point if we realize what we have to do when a situation presents itself, we’re just not going to be torn. You know, by definition, the fact that we’re torn means that we haven’t reached the tipping point. We’re still balancing out two or more possibilities, two or more directions, two or more, you know, our gut instinct, fighting our logic, but in most inner conflicts, certainly the ones that are triggered by an event, triggered by a change, there is at some point, at some time, a tipping point. Where you go, Oh, okay, the balance, the balance of the scales, means I need to do this and, and you may change your mind. You know, we have lots of interviews in our research where people have made a decision and then gone, ah, no, okay, and gone back to before the tipping point, but the tipping point is always there, or it’s on its way, and we need to remember that.

James (30:28): I think that’s a really challenging thing with this particular story, is that with so many other contexts, you can make a decision and take a step forward and then reevaluate and say, No, that wasn’t right. I’ll step back and start again, or I’ll move slightly differently from here, in a different direction. But with this story, you’re all in right? When you make that decision. You’re either turning your back on evidence based modern medicine, or you’re all into mastectomy, radiotherapy, chemotherapy, and you can’t pull out a moment later and say, Actually, I’ve changed my mind. I’ll take the other route. I felt for me, that’s one of the things that makes this such a difficult story.

Susan (31:27): Yeah, I’m coming back to something Talia said. She said, alternative medicine will always be my preference, but traditional medicine has the evidence, and it’s, as you said, emotion versus logic, instinct versus the facts. But one thing she’s doing which gives me hope, even at this stage in the story, that she’s going to find a way through, is that she’s identified what the possible directions are. It doesn’t make it any easier for her, but she’s clear about what she’s dealing with. So let’s hear more.

Talia (32:13): Was so conflicted. I just struggled so much with it, and I tried to do what felt right for me. I was getting two medical opinions, and on some decisions, I said yes immediately, but on others, I checked with both the consultants, and then if I got different opinions, I had to make my own choices, and what made it worse was that I didn’t have any capacity in my mind to work this through. I didn’t feel I had the ability to do the research, and I was feeling hugely vulnerable, and that didn’t help.

Caitlin (33:08): I hear two two pieces here, like it’s amazing to me that she’s saying. I’m getting these double opinions. I’m trying to make my own decisions when I had the opportunity, I’ll go back and check with both consultants, and yet she still feels like she isn’t able to make good decisions, like her capacity of mind is not there, but I’m hearing clearly that it is improving somehow in this part of the story, that there is some processing going on, mentally, rationally, logically. What do you guys make of this section?

James (33:49): Well, I agree. Clearly, she is doing more and more and doing admirably, and yet the feeling that she’s doing all that in is the one that says, I don’t have capacity. I can’t do this alone, and I’m vulnerable. I don’t have any help. And it’s it’s interesting to sit here from our point of view, and say, See that she’s doing an amazing job of getting informed, of getting multiple opinions, doing as much research as she can do. She’s doing incredibly

Susan (34:34): It’s very moving. And listening to her process of flipping between following her instincts, doubting her instincts, leaning on others, and some sense that she shouldn’t be leaning on others. I had to make my own choices, even if I got different opinions. I’m also interested. Did in the in the role of specialists here. I mean, they’re going to be the the evidence, part of the information she’s receiving and and I work with doctors a lot, and I know that they struggle within a conflict the whole time as well, in relation to their patients. So it’s not just the patient who is struggling, it’s it’s a very complex situation. And of course, Talia is going to turn to non specialists, isn’t she? She’s going to turn to friends, family and very often, when one is ill, if one has spread the word about that, people rush into support, and they also rush in with what they would do in the same situation. So let’s hear a little more about that from Talia.

Talia (35:59): What was really unhelpful was people trying to get me to see things the way they see them. And a really close friend of mine who’s very anti modern medicine, just kept telling me to go with alternative medicine, and I got this long sobbing message from her saying, don’t, just don’t, don’t, don’t have chemotherapy, don’t have these surgeries, and if you spend your last penny on alternative therapy, just do that. That really, it really, really upset me. So I wanted, instead, I wanted to make up my own mind about this, and I and then, and then be supported for the decision I had made. So when I got her message, I just kept thinking, well, it is not your money. Is not your choice, and it’s not your body. And actually, if anything, it, it pushed me to actually go, all right, you know, sort it. I’m gonna do what I want. I’m not. I’m not saying that people shouldn’t have given me advice. I i had some really very useful conversations, but I I often found that those conversations just got in my way, and they held me back from getting to where I wanted to get to, and what I found more useful was people supporting what I decided, and then helping me do that, helping me look into things and just to get on with what I wanted.

James (37:39): Isn’t this clear. It’s such a testament to the role of the supporters, and points out just what a demanding and skillful role it is and needs to be.

Caitlin (37:54): And we all have opinions, right? Really strong opinions, probably on this subject, and I’m sure that all the people who are supporting her love her and care about her and want the very best for her in the short term and the long term, right? The thing that jumps to my mind is, as a supporter, how can you always make sure that the person you’re supporting is the hero of their own story, that this is not you offering them here’s the right way to author your story, but in fact, you supporting them in holding the pen and working out how they’re going to Author it, and just applauding that with much enthusiasm.

Susan (38:43): I think the danger here for supporters is wanting to help so much that they’re feeling so much of the person who in this case, is ill, that they will put all their emotion into that task, but in the service of perhaps their own needs. You know when they have been ill or when they have felt their life was at risk in some way. And so we have the well meaning sobbing friends saying, Don’t do this, when what she really means is, if I were in your position, I wouldn’t do this. And it so matters to her, and Talia so matters to her that she’s putting pressure on in a good cause. But as Talia said, it’s really not what you want,

Caitlin (39:41): and we don’t know, right? That friend could have also been saying that, but underneath, could just be saying, don’t die, or she could be saying it could come from a different place of meaning. There’s one other thing that I like in this segment, which is kind of the value of. Have the wrong opinion in a way that’s lovely, and how she has this reaction where she said it pushed me to go right, sought it. I’m doing what I want. And is there a way that, as supporters, we can contribute the value of that opinion that the person is going to dissent to without actually saying this is the way to go, but to really hold up and ask somebody to test what feels right and what feels wrong when they offer different opinions. You know, how do you hold that opinion, but a whole lot lighter, just to enable the person to react against it.

Susan (40:45): That’s gorgeous. I really like that. So we’re not negating what supports the feeling in a in any way. But I know to use the word ask. I think that’s rather than telling try to ask the person to ask the person you’re supporting, turn it into a question. I mean, not even a literal question, but but an open discussion. That’s lovely.

Caitlin (41:17): Now, how would you feel if I told you go do the alternative medicine piece rather than go to the doctor. It’s a subtle shift, but it makes a difference, and it might still give her the opportunity to go, ooh, that makes me feel solid. I need to do the other thing.

Susan (41:41): I think there’s another point in there, which is, as a supporter, the people you’re supporting are not necessarily going to be in a place where they can listen, they can thank you for your support and to be prepared for and appreciative of, oh, this is hard. This is hard. Appreciative of the person I’m supporting is angry at me. That means that we’ve connected, but it also means that they feel safe enough with me to share their anger as well as their fear and their grief. Being a supporter is not simply listening, is it?

Caitlin (42:23): No, I love that point. Our relationship is good and strong enough that they can be angry at me now, and I’m going to hold that yes,

James (42:34): I was thinking it’s we want to support as strongly as we can, but to speak as lightly as we can. And I think that thing you just said, Caitlin about framing ideas as queries is a really potent way of doing that. But if we mix up these two things right, my desire, my need to support you as strongly as I can, then anything I say will get heavier and more insistent, and it will require greater dissent from them. So there’s a real skill in saying, I am here. I support you through thick and thin. I am the target when you want to get angry and you need to express that anger, I am strong enough for all of those things, and yet I almost speak in whispers when it comes to anything that could be construed as advice, that’s a it’s a huge skill, because underneath it, the only thing I’m really saying is I want you to be Okay. I don’t want to lose you.

Caitlin (44:02): And just how important it is for those supporters to get the support that they need to show up in the best possible way for the person that they’re supporting, because they are going through a tremendous amount.

Susan (44:15): Yeah, I’ve done a lot of work with cervical cancer sufferers, and their partners, I have learned, are the ones who are saying support. Oh no, no, no, no, no. I, of course, I didn’t get support. It’s my female partner who is ill, and I’m thinking, but you’re in the maelstrom, you’re in the center of the of the world, and with them. And so so often supporters feel they don’t need help, and maybe they don’t, but they deserve. Of it, if they do need it, or if they want it so important. So let’s come back to talia’s story, you know.

Talia (45:10): And a lot of people said to me, Well, it’s obvious, you you know, you take the direction that keeps you alive. But for me it was, it was just much more complicated than that, because, you know, when I when I was first diagnosed, Mark had only died a few months before, and I was still spending almost every single day saying, Just come and get me. And I was facing death and I didn’t want to live.

Susan (45:43): So here’s the big surprise. Certainly, when I was listening to Target’s story for the first time, I didn’t expect this,

Caitlin (45:52): absolutely for me, this just hits like this is the story underneath the story that we didn’t get at the front and that, I imagine not many people understood who were around Talia at this time. But really it was when I was facing death. I didn’t want to live. I wanted to go and join mark. That is a powerful underlying story,

James (46:20): and that’s very difficult to support, because I bet that’s a story that she probably kept quiet to many of her supporters, and they just weren’t aware of it.

Caitlin (46:33): I wonder what else was going on for her in story, underneath the story, or how that story underneath. The story evolved over time as she began to get the input and find her way towards decision and action.

Susan (46:52): And I’m also aware that whatever an inner conflict and without encouraging people to overthink. It’s not going to get resolved if you don’t get the story beneath the story, which could be in the past, or in this case, could be something that’s happened very, very recently, which is coloring it’s the foundation of everything that Talia is feeling about her own illness. So bearing that in mind, let’s see how Talia moves on to the resolution that’s right for her.

Talia (47:35): But then I became aware of a part of me that felt that well, that feels that Mark’s life it was cut short, and maybe I have an obligation to to live for both of us. And if I do, I have to try and do that well. And yeah, he wouldn’t have wanted me to go down the medical path, but he’s not here, and I have to do the best with what’s available to me, the big resolution, the kind of final piece of the puzzle that happened when I I had to decide about radiotherapy, and I went to see my consultant, with my closest friend, who came for support, and I explained all my doubts, and then honestly, without, without even being asked, My consultant said, if this was happening to me, I would have the treatment. And I just said, All right, I’ll have it. My friend burst into tears and went, thank goodness I thought you were going to not have it, and then we’d always be wondering, if the cancer came back, should we have done it?

Caitlin (49:10): For me, this is like a there she is moment where you know just just some strong sense of courageous self steps up and knows what’s right for her,

Susan (49:24): and she’s done it so elegantly, hasn’t she? You know, her mind and her feelings have have found a way to think about this. They found a meaning in this, which still honors Mark I have an obligation to live for both of us. You know, he would want me to, or maybe he wouldn’t have wanted me to, but he’s not here, and I have to do my best. I have to do my best, and she can live with that.

James (49:57): That’s a huge change, isn’t it? I. I have quietly heard throughout all of this until now. What is the point of me getting better if Mark’s not here to share it with Why do I have to go through all this treatment and pain and suffering when the thing I’m really suffering isn’t going to change, and something has changed here. She has found an acceptance of saying, Mark is not here, and that’s okay, and I can still live, and that’s okay, and that seems to me to be the real thing that frees her up to make a decision.

Susan (50:41): We spoke earlier about a tipping point, and for me, that’s the big one here. I mean, yes, the the later realization that her consultant is stepping up to Yes, I would have this treatment. And I’m sure that helped, and I’m also sure it helped, but her friends said, Yeah, we wanted you to have the medical treatment. But the real tipping point is I can square it with my grief about Mark and with my relationship with Mark and well, I mean, let’s see in a moment whether this leaves her at peace, but it feels like this is a tipping point.

Talia (51:27): I’m I’m at peace with the direction I’m taking. I absolutely am. But there is a part of me that that does regret, that will probably always regret, that will always go I wonder what would have happened if I’d only only explored the alternative direction. Would I have preferred it? I I don’t know. I’ve finished the treatment now, and, yeah, I’ve started adding alternative remedies to help me with my symptoms. And that is, yeah, that’s working for me. And also, I’m doing a mindfulness course, which is phenomenal at helping me with my anxiety.

Susan (52:14): So Charlie gets the best of both worlds, if you like, she has opted for the evidence, but she’s supporting that with the alternative. It feels like, although she’s saying that there is a part of her, that there is very often, a part that is not on board with the direction that is taking but but quietly falls into line with that.

Caitlin (52:42): I love the honesty. I think that’s real, right? Yeah, her saying I am at peace with this, and yet there is a part of me, and yet there is some kind of remainder. And I don’t think we often talk about this in coming through the end of an inner conflict and coming to a decision that it’s okay, that there is some kind of remaining part, remaining feeling like that’s asking what if. And that doesn’t necessarily mean you’re not resolved.

James (53:20): All she has to do, and it’s what she’s done, is to get to that tipping point you’ve mentioned, to be able to make a decision and take a step, and that first step then allows a next step and a next step, and this is the beautiful outcome of that, is that she’s able to get medical treatment and then layer it with alternative treatments to support the other parts of her that have also been through the mill.

Susan (53:52): Yeah, I’m remembering many of the clients I’ve worked with, and I’m sure that you Caitlin and James are too where they’re choosing between, let’s for the sake of it, seeing two decisions and the answer turns out to me, I want both. I want to go this way whilst at the same time going that way. And yes, sometimes first one then the other, sometimes less of one and more of the other. But the answer I want both seems to be what Talia has reached, and it’s really, really lovely.

Caitlin (54:31): And I love that sense. When James was talking, I got an image in my mind like all of a sudden, the cascade of what footstep to take after what footstep starts to unfold? And yeah, the path really does begin to make itself by walking, and you don’t feel quite so stuck. I wonder, what are some of the things that are sticking with you guys in talia’s story? Because we. Really go through quite a process of inner conflict in her story from beginning to end.

James (55:09): Well, the first thing is, isn’t life complicated? As simple as that things come and hit us when they want to, not at our convenience. And so all too often, we’re dealing with many things on multiple fronts, and each one of those things feels impossible, and yet one step, one step, or even one breath at a time is the only way to get through it. And then the other thing I find so important is the light she has shed on the role of the supporter and the skill required to be a supporter.

Susan (55:52): And we have some lovely examples of all sorts of support. You know, the consultant stepping up to say, Yeah, I would take this treatment, the friend, who sobbed down the phone and who, as you so rightly said, Caitlin, is offering their support because they want the best they want her to live. And then the friend at the end, who clearly held back from saying, take the medicine, do the medical route. And then once she decided, and only once she decided, said, Oh, thank you. You did what I wanted you to do. So many lovely examples of support surrounding a woman who is giving us so many lovely examples of a life or death resolution. It’s amazing to me,

Caitlin (56:49): if we broke this down in stages to to really feel into how stuck and how enormous one phase of this journey can feel and that how, despite that, somehow the clock keeps ticking, and things do keep moving, and the emotions keep getting processed, and some little bit of rationality comes in, some bit of choice comes in, and progressively, we do have the ability to move from one seemingly impossible stage to another one that just moves us that little bit forward, that little bit closer towards resolution.

Talia (57:33): I may live to be 100 or I might die in another two years, or another four, or, I don’t know, because I’m always going to be in remission. And if I, if I do, live a long life, I guess that’s that was what was meant to happen. And, yeah, I’m just doing the best I can day to day. If I don’t like, if I die tomorrow, well, then I hope I’ll get to see Mark again. I guess, yeah, I didn’t want to live, but I just did anyway.

Susan (58:12): Talia’s story may well have left you thinking about serious matters times when you have faced the worst possible, or those close to you have faced the worst possible. So just to add that, the show notes on tell your story offer you not only transcript of the podcast, but more insight into navigating conflict around health issues or other life or death matters, and please also follow us on Instagram at the torn project for regular stories, resources and hope for all things in a conflict.