Resolution Round Up

Susan (0:03): We’re at the end of season one of the torn podcast, and in this episode, we’re bringing together the whole season by gathering some of the resolutions we’ve included throughout the helpful ways forward for if you’re torn or supporting anyone torn or curious about what we’re doing and why have you ever felt torn, experienced that inner struggle of clashing needs, yearnings and beliefs, not a fight with others, a fight within yourself. It’s confusing, it’s painful, it’s inner conflict. I’m Susan,

James (0:47): I’m James,

Caitlin (0:48): I’m Caitlin.

Susan (0:52): We are coaches with different areas of expertise and a shared passion for helping everyone understand and navigate torn feelings. Welcome to our podcast where we share stories, resources and hope around all things in a conflict.

Susan (1:15): So the first season of the torn podcast, five real life stories, one real life story dramatized, one expert interview and four general background pieces. And now in this final episode, we’re bringing together the whole season. In particular, we’ve gathered those parts of each episode which offer resolutions to inner conflict, even if you’re not torn right now, this look back at what we’ve covered will help you understand even more about inner conflict and how core it is to who we are as human beings. I think all three of us agree that inner conflict it’s not an individual problem, but a global opportunity to help us all grow and thrive.

James (2:06): Yes, and one of the most exciting things for me about where we’re at at the end of our first season is the amount of growing and thriving that we’ve been doing. We’ve gone from three people with a wonderful idea talking it through, over zoom calls and in person to this complete season where we have people listening and interacting and coming back with more questions and more ideas. And I think the work is already doing it,

Caitlin (2:39): and we’re looking forward too to a bonus episode that follows this one, where we will be exploring your questions and our answers engaging more and more as we round out to the end of the season with our growing audience. So thank you for being part of our first season.

James (2:59): We also invite you to look out for our season two, which will be coming up later in the spring. We are putting it together now with more real life stories and insights and discussions, and I promise you, that’s going to be just as exciting as this season has been. You

Susan (3:28): our first and most important resolution is realizing, quite simply, that inner conflict is normal. This is actually explored in our very first podcast of season one, but it’s developed throughout the season and throughout our Instagrams and in our website.

Caitlin (3:46): Yeah, I think this kind of normality of feeling torn was our first priority. And why is that a resolution in and of itself? For me, it’s because it takes away the kind of secrecy, the self blame, the shame, the denial that we all kind of sit alone with our inner conflicts. So right now, we’re kind of opening the windows and opening the doors with this project, and that’s a resolution in itself.

James (4:20): Yeah, I think for me, the really important thing is that we are taking something that has been pathologized for a long, long time, and saying, No, it’s normal. It’s part of being human. It is precisely how we be human. It is precisely how we grow and develop. It’s there for everyone, and the more we discuss it, the better we get at it.

Caitlin (4:44): Yeah, it’s our encouragement to our audience to kind of spread the word and open the conversation as a means of rippling this out and supporting others, right? We can all help one another to make ourselves feel. Feel less alone and normal and human. If we can all speak about inner conflict as a natural part of of our lives,

Susan (5:09): I think that comes into play, particularly for me, when we are supporting others. Specifically, you know, maybe somebody we’re close to, maybe somebody at work, they talk about an inner conflict, there’s such a temptation to say, Oh, you poor thing. Oh, that’s terrible, if we can come from Oh, that’s interesting. Yeah, let’s talk about that, letting them talk about that, but without the judgment that society puts on, I think that would be huge. It’s a strand that runs through all our work. But this normalization, I think, is particularly important, not only when we’re dealing with ourselves, but also when we’re specifically helping others.

Caitlin (6:00): Yeah, it’s why I think real human stories was such a part of our thought process. And core to bringing the podcast out,

James (6:10): part of supporting people, I think, is recognizing that something we should consciously do, because, generally speaking, society itself doesn’t want inner conflict. It doesn’t make space for inner conflict, and it tries to suppress it. Everyone involved in experiencing their own inner conflict and supporting others through it is already doing something quite courageous and quite different for the good of all, I have to say

Susan (6:41): such a lovely thought that by contradicting what society says, we can actually make a change. I really like that.

Caitlin (6:54): Yeah, I think our inclination is to want to control and contain our inner conflicts, but sometimes we have to accept and let be and let the inner conflict work through us over time. I think that’s that sentiment was almost best captured for me by Ian’s story earlier on in our inner series, where he explained that coming to a resolution was like allowing a pendulum to go back and forth and to slowly come to a rest, to slowly allow that pendulum to swing one way And the other until it hangs level and aligned and true. And that image was so beautiful to me because it was just an allowance and an acceptance that there is this oscillation from time to time you

Susan (8:06): one of the most interesting things we’ve learned from our research so far is that there’s an identifiable journey through inner conflict. We don’t all take every step. We miss some, or we stay on others, but we do follow a path. I find this fascinating that our interviewees who don’t know each other, let alone talk to each other, have all come up with some variation of this journey that we’ve identified.

Caitlin (8:36): Yeah, and how we got there was, you know, over 120 interviews, and then our own analysis process of those interviews, drawing out the key themes and finding this journey process. You can go more deeply into the torn journey in Episode Seven, but just as a way of outlining this here and recalling it for everyone. It begins with unconscious awareness, so some kind of signals in your mental space, in your physical body, in how you’re relating that is unconsciously there and showing that you’re feeling torn, that moves you into the second stage of conscious awareness. You begin to recognize something’s not right. I am feeling torn, and my system is at ill ease. The third stage, after you’ve identified that conscious awareness of feeling torn is that you gather information. You know what? What do you need to understand about the directions that you’re torn in in order to get a better sense of them and gather the right information so you you kind of get a grip and a handle on what it is you’re exactly torn by. And that’s followed by our fourth stage, which is about creating hypotheses and actually doing experiments. What happens when you move a little way down a certain path and experiment with whether that feels right, you can always move back. It’s not a full blown commitment to any particular direction, but you’re playing with it. And then we have step five, which is a tipping point. You realize, actually I am beginning to get a clear sense of the path ahead and where I want to go, and that we call the tipping point. Sixth point is forks in the road, where you may decide that actually you need to circle back or make a slight iteration or change in that direction, and then the seventh step is a sense of integration, or a meaning making, where it all comes together. It’s not to say that it always follows a perfect seven points, and you’re always going through that journey knowing exactly where you are. But it is incredibly useful to have this map

Susan (11:13): I’ve been struck by I’m already teaching this at Cambridge University to wonderful, wonderful medics from the NHS. I’ve always been struck by the look of, I think Wonder is probably too strong a word, but look of, oh, when you say this is not just chaos in a conflict, it’s not chaos. There’s a journey to it. And you can step on, you can step off, and your patients are going through this journey as well. There’s something about having a map that always helps people feel more in control and more confident about what they’re doing. It’s magic. It’s wonderful.

Caitlin (11:56): That’s really valuable because it’s inherent in the nature of feeling torn, that at some points you may feel stuck, you may feel you know that you you’re kind of crippled by by the sensation of feeling torn. And when you have the map, you can say, I am I’m torn now in just the awareness of what it is I’m torn about. But what could happen next? What could I do next? The next point on the journey is to gather information, you know, and so you have somewhere that you can point towards, and I think that’s useful. And if you’re a supporter, you can also offer the next step on the map and see whether that’s useful to somebody that you’re you’re supporting.

Susan (12:43): Just to add that, we have two specific elements on our website, the ton project.com where we give more detail about this. One is a checklist you can use for yourself or somebody else to see exactly where you are. And the other is a really deep dive into every stage of the seven journey, stages where you can look at, are you on track? What can you do? How do you work with this? So there’s a lot more support on the website, a lot more detail about this journey. You

Susan (13:26): so the starting point for really understanding torn feelings is when we come from unconscious lack of comfort to conscious awareness of discomfort and then identifying what’s actually happening. It’s clear from all our interviews at this point where we move from just feeling uncomfortable to knowing why we’re hurting. And we found it may be a little more complicated than you think. James, would you like to go into detail about that?

James (14:00): Well, I think that’s it’s a really interesting moment, isn’t it, to have this vague sense of something not quite right, and then to have to do the work, or allow time to bring it to a more conscious awareness, which is one thing, but then the work of identifying what is the conflict comes in conflicts. I think it’s important to say come in all shapes and sizes, and, in fact, also different time frames. So it’s quite possible to have a very small conflict, like, do I or do I not want to go to the party I’ve been invited to this Friday, even something as small as that may not be a simple list of pros and cons. It may have greater complexity than that. Then we also understand that there are questions that become really important during a particular time frame, but they are limited. And for example, is this the right time for me to start having children, to start a family? Lee, because obviously at some point that question will pass, and then there are also lifelong questions, which really are questions of, who am I as compared to, who does the world expect or want me to be? It’s important to say that we’re not just talking about the big problems. We’re talking about a process for conflicts, inner conflicts of all sizes. And then, having said that, how do you go about the process of recognizing that this is a conflict, or even going one step further and actually identifying what the conflict is? My sense is quite often I’m confused, for me, an external conflict, an external problem is something that is quite easy for me to define, but an internal conflict I’m more confused about, and I’m less willing to work with. I there’s quite a lot of anxiety around even exploring it, and then I tend to go back and forth, and there’s quite a lot of unsettled emotions around that.

Susan (16:12): And I think you’ve made, well, so many important points there, but the one I want to pick up on is your own experience of inner conflict. Well, if we are supporting others, I mean, be that professionally or as a friend, we’re working with the other person’s confusion as well all the things you described the other person is going to be feeling. And it sounds complicated. It sounds like, Well, what do I say to them? What do I advise them? And very often, the way forward is simply not to do either of those, simply to allow them to be confused and accept that and tell them they’re doing fine, and allow them to know that it’s okay to be confused. Because my bet is James, and I’m going to pass back to you on this. My bet is that if you sit with the confusion, then there is clarity, even though it is uncomfortable.

James (17:10): Yes, absolutely. And just thinking for a moment about supporters and professionals, I think recognizing that inner conflict is tends to be multi dimensional demands that we have to be simply patient and supportive and open. I know that I when I see other people struggling, I like to get real clarity, and that often means being reductive and trying to get to pros and cons, and it’s this and it’s that, and that actually diminishes the complexity of the inner conflict and really doesn’t help. So as you said, keeping open and supporting and allowing people to be where they’re at is the best thing to do that allows the conflict to bubble up and really reveal itself.

Susan (18:16): Being torn is always an emotional journey, but the key emotion is almost always fear of taking the wrong direction and all the repercussions of that, hurting others, missing out, ending up with the wrong future. So fear is almost always a core aspect of being torn

Caitlin (18:40): it’s a kind of fundamental fear that lives under many inner conflicts. We found a fear about, will I be safe if I choose such and such, will I belong? If I choose such and such, will I be loved and validated? Still, you know, these get to a really sort of primitive concern that we have. So James, how do we take care of that underlying fear as we seek to resolve inner conflict? How do we do that?

James (19:17): That is such a good question. How do we take care of that underlying fear? Somebody sensible once said something along the lines of, you can’t solve the problem by working with it at the same level that you created the problem. As soon as we meet the fear, we’re in an anxious state, and that fear is the propellant for our thinking. It’s impossible, really, to resolve anything once we’re in that place, and therefore, the key thing to do is to take a step aside, go and do something very different, just to create a bit of space between self and fear. Obvious examples are fear. Things like if your mind is wearing, then go and do something in your body, whether that’s breathing or deliberate relaxation or stretching and moving or touching and calming yourself understanding that you have a nervous system that is anxious, and you cannot think it back to calmness, but you can stroke it back to calmness. Of course, if the anxiety is too much in your body and breathing is difficult, or you have this tight, clenched feeling in your chest, well then you can move away from the body and into the mind and start distracting yourself by naming five things that begin with the first letter of your name, for example, anything just to create a bit of space. So I avoid seeing the fear. And what we need to do is actually really spot the fear and recognize it and create enough space to work with it.

Caitlin (20:57): Yeah, the image I get in my mind is that there’s quite naturally, a kind of fear flywheel, fear that perpetuates, fear that is scared of being scared and so on. And what you’re pointing to is, how do we, you know, sort of stick something in that flywheel to stop its wheels turning and and then generate enough perspective to be compassionate and caring to our fear. And for me, that’s the critical move as well. After space, it’s Oh, I’m I’m feeling scared right now, and let me inquire with curiosity and tenderness and care as to what I am scared of here. Why does this matter? And that approach is not meeting fear with fear, but meeting fear with self compassion.

James (21:55): I love those two words, curiosity and compassion. I think that points really clearly to what we can offer somebody else who’s stuck with their fear, because we can’t all get ourselves out of it and and one of the greatest gifts somebody can give by way of supporting is to create a bit of space, create a bit of openness and to be caring and compassionate and curious, all of which is saying it’s okay you be scared, and I’ll do the holding, and I’ll just be interested, and I won’t judge, and I won’t be in a rush. And I think that’s a huge gift to give to someone who’s facing fear at that point.

Caitlin (22:44): And a gift we offer all of you guys is on our website for this particular moment, because we have five ways to calm a conflict and also how to support emotional storms. I think this would be a great gift to all of our loved ones, if we just gained a little bit of skill around supporting people who are scared and finding Safety.

Susan (23:20): One of the things we’ve learned in our work with the Tom project is how important the past is. To some extent, the past creates the present, creates the fear that comes in the present, and there’s almost always a link to the past which have broken can help release that fear and so help us resolve the conflict.

James (23:45): Of course, we are all born, we are all children, and we become adults, but during those past times, we absorb, unwittingly, many, many lessons that shape who we are today, and thus the past creates the present. What’s interesting about a lot of those lessons is that they were most likely really useful for that period in the past, but that our lack of awareness means we haven’t interrogated them to see whether we should let them go, whether there are new lessons that can support us better. Now, I think some of our episodes have pointed to the huge release that is available in just learning to see and recognize the influence of the past. And by the way, that past can be multi generational, it’s not just my childhood, but the way my parents’ childhood influenced the way they parented me in my childhood. And. On back through the generations. It all becomes slightly vaguer looking backwards, but it’s all really real and pertinent when we’re here in the present wondering, how did I get here?

Susan (25:13): I love that question. How did I get here? Because so much of what we’re doing is about the journey. It’s about the how did I get here? Even though the question was struggling with is, how can I get to the next stage? So it’s always a wonderful question to ask.

James (25:33): I think it’s also important to point out that when I’m talking about lessons from the past, I’m not just talking about events, but I’m talking about those parts of me today that are derived from those events. So my beliefs, my values, the things that I hold to be possible, the things I hold to be impossible, the things I hold to be important, those things that, to some great degree, make me who I am today. And so the past is a really important aspect of myself, as well as something that we need to investigate to see whether there’s stuff that can be released that’s no longer helping us.

Susan (26:08): One of the things I’m asking myself there and other people may be also asking themselves, is, but, but if you’re helping somebody else, do you really say to them, how is the past involved and what happened in your past. I think that’s easier than it sounds, because very often when somebody is telling you about they’re in a conflict, they will naturally say things like, well, this always happens. Or, yeah, well, this reminds me of and if they do, then that’s a signal that they’re probably thinking about something in the past which preceded their current in a conflict. So I don’t think it’s as difficult as it feels to be encouraging those you are supporting to look back as well as looking forward.

James (26:59): And I think it’s, it is really helpful as a supporter just to, particularly when somebody sounds very set. It’s always been like this. This is the way of things. It’s, I think it’s very useful as a supporter just to query that and ask. So it’s always been that way, and is it still useful? How does it How does it help you now, or how does it hold you now? How does it hold you back now? I think there are gentle ways that we can once again, open the space for a bit of curiosity and compassion.

Susan (27:37): I find it significant that not the very first podcast that we have in season one, but the second one, and we chose this quite deliberately, is a story about the past affecting a present decision, and the realization that this is Paul’s story, the realization Paul had that he was still acting On something he’d learned as a child, and when he realized that, it changed everything for him,

Susan (28:18): as well as more general advice of our resolution, we’re trying always to introduce specific therapeutic approaches that might help you. The one we introduce in this season is parts work. We presented this in a specialist interview, but also in a real life story of how it’s possible to use this approach to explore and then to effectively resolve in a conflict.

Caitlin (28:45): Yeah, I was grateful to interview Alex, who is an ifs or internal family systems therapist, and bring his expert point of view about what this therapeutic intervention is all about. But I also hugely appreciated how he sort of democratized parts work for us and enabled us to think about ways that we can begin to use heart’s work. And I also want to say that there is something intuitive about understanding ourselves as made up of multiple parts, that each want different things for ourselves, and each have some kind of positive intention and wanting for us, but that these parts of ourselves can Get into conflict with one another and so across both that expert interview, which is entitled, What is parts work and why is it important, and also Richard’s story, our listeners can find a real illustration of what it means to understand ourselves as multiple. Understand these parts is all wanting something good for us, and begin to use a kind of internal dialog to understand, bring curiosity, bring compassion to all of these many parts of ourselves. Because ultimately, a resolution comes when we can kind of give all of the different parts of ourselves as much of what they are looking for as we can, right?

Susan (30:32): I want to pick up on something you were saying about parts being good for us, parts helping us, and it’s something we often miss. You say, I’ve got an angry part, and, you know, I need to get rid of it, and or I’m really frightened here, a part of me is really frightening. I must do something about that. And very often, I would love to say, always, very often, our parts are there for a positive purpose. Maybe they’re protecting us against something. Maybe they’re helping us to grow. Maybe they’re teaching us a lesson of some sort, which will be really useful to us. So there may be many parts, and this was something that both Alex and Richard in his real life story, they present very well that even the parts of us that we may be wary of are actually ones to be listened to and taken account of.

Caitlin (31:31): Yeah, and there’s no sort of, well, I say no, but I don’t want to make absolutes, but it certainly seems to me that when you ignore a part, it quite often grows louder and stays with you. It’s it’s needs and wants stay with you. In Richard’s story, he’s, he’s renegotiating his relationship with alcohol, and he clearly shows us his process of mapping that there were multiple different parts involved in in this inner conflict, you know, a part that was social, a part that wanted better for his health, a part that just wanted to enjoy a treat, and so on. And he really went through this process of understanding all of the different parts, all of their different wants and needs from him and trying to gather these parts around a kind of table, you know, a team that he needed to check in with and say, Oh, hey, how can I help this particular part get a bit of what it needs and and this particular part get a bit of what it needs? And that was his work in finding resolution and continually coming back to that table of multiple parts and checking in with them. I think it was a really nice illustration. I would also love to point people towards resources that we’ll have in our show notes of no bad parts, which is a book by Richard Swartz

Susan (33:01): and I would like to guide people to a wonderful I was going to say two parts. It’s two films intended for children. But as all good children’s films are having messages for us adults, called Inside Out, inside out part one and inside out part two. It’s a wonderful exploration of parts. Apparently, the filmmakers brought in psychologists, and on one level, it shows the theory is fantastic, and on another level, you wouldn’t know it is all huge fun for children of every age you

Susan (33:50): the core revolution for all in a conflict is surely to come to a direction that feels really right for you, that doesn’t leave you torn, that doesn’t leave you conflicted. If all the possibilities are wrong in some way, that’s what creates the conflict. You have to reach a point. We call it a tipping point, where you’re what’s called congruent, that you feel a majority of comfort about your direction. No alarm bells. It feels right for you.

Caitlin (34:19): Yeah, this is such a fundamental piece what is right for us and what is wrong for us, and how we register that in our bodies. And ultimately, as you point to Susan, resolution is when we find ourselves settled back in that place of congruence. This feels right for me, and it quite often expresses itself as a kind of ah, exhale, okay. I know now things are clear. I feel confident I can move forward.

James (34:58): Yes, for me. Congruence feels quiet, as you said, settled peaceful. And I think it’s important to contrast that with the opposite, incongruence, because incongruence isn’t a bad thing, it’s simply alerting us that things aren’t quite fitting yet. And so if I feel mostly in this way, but there’s still a pull in another direction, and it’s a pull that I cannot resolve and work with, then I’m still in a state of incongruence of inner conflict. I say this because I think it’s important not just to seek quietness and peacefulness and settledness to the extent of ignoring signals. Those signals are still absolutely there to help us and just say Almost there, almost there, but there’s a bit more work to be done.

Caitlin (36:04): And one thing I want to remind people of is that this can be a bit of a practice and a skill that you develop in noticing in your body and your emotions what congruence feels like for you and what incongruence feels like for you. So super simple little check in, you know, close your eyes, take few deep breaths and go back to a time where everything felt right for you, and notice what goes on in your body when everything feels right for you. That is congruence, that sense of fully aligned, harmonious and having that specific memory, specific bodily sensation, to hand as a resource as a state, is so valuable in navigating life right, we know when we’re in it, and we know when we’re away from it. Likewise, you can also check in with yourself and say, What does mild incongruence feel like? You know when things are just a little off? What does that feel like? Something in the belly, something in the throat. Attention in your shoulders. Notice what happens when things start to feel off for you, and even identify specific examples so you can clock that, because we all

James (37:34): have a right to

Caitlin (37:36): know what feels right for us and what feels wrong for us and to act on either of those situations.

James (37:47): And sometimes it’s in the action that we work out what feels right and what feels wrong for us. When we talk about congruence, feeling quiet, peaceful and settled. I think it’s also important to recognize that it can be a treaty negotiated between one’s hearts. It can be a respectful and a working compromise if something is strongly pulling in another direction. I would say that is incongruence and should be looked at. But if most things are pulling in one direction and there is a negotiation going on, then that’s good enough to move with, to go into action with. So rather than congruence being an absolute 100% everything is aligned. As soon as we’re getting to figures of 90 95% then we’ve got something we can work with, which is why I want to point back Caitlin to what you said about really practicing and learning to recognize the nuance of how congruence and incongruence feels, because at some point we’re turning the dials very slightly to get more information and to get into action. Most importantly,

Caitlin (39:09): absolutely, we can create a kind of feedback loop right and check in I’m feeling congruent enough to act on this. But any parts that feel resistance. Don’t worry. We’re gonna check back in with you and we’ll see how this little experiment goes. That’s something we can do as we work to ever more congruence, or even realize, oh, that didn’t feel so congruent. I gotta go and find another solution. You in

Susan (39:51): reaching a resolution usually means being ready to take action. If you sure of your direction on the journey, you move four. Forward that said action takes various forms. Is it do something, say something, not do something, hold back from saying something

Caitlin (40:11): that, saying doing something, not doing something, holding back. We just have to remember that action is the first step and then the next step. It does not need to be giant leaps, but that first five degree turn into the right direction is enough to start building momentum,

James (40:36): and even more so supporting what you’re saying, that first five degree turn is to discover that it is the right turn. So there is a not just taking action, but taking action to get feedback, to take action to get feedback, with developing that loop

Caitlin (40:57): with every step. And this is hard, right? I think our social, our socialization, teaches us that we have to be, yeah, 100% committed, you know, running down that line of direction once we’ve decided. But I think the reality is, it is that that’s extremely difficult to take sometimes when you’ve been through a protracted period of inner conflict. So what happens when you just boil this down to the next right step is that all of a sudden it becomes accessible and possible just to make that, to gain the feedback to then choose the next step, and to see that over time, that momentum begins to build.

Susan (41:51): And this sort of takes us back to the very first point we made around in a conflict, uncertainty, not knowing quite what to do, that is normal, and we do need to almost fight against society’s demand that every step is the right step in the right direction. Yes, we need to do what feels right for us, what is right for us, but we don’t need to be sure at every point.

James (42:22): And since we’re talking about taking action, we’re using that phrase a lot. It’s important to emphasize that that may not look like taking action, that may look like holding back or taking space or re evaluating. All of these are different approaches to taking action, and they are all the right approach. At some point in the process, taking action is not always active, but it is always deliberate.

Susan (42:53): I like that. Taking action is not always active. Thank you. In this episode, we brought together the whole of season one by gathering some of the resolutions we covered during the season, such as realizing it’s normal, identifying your conflict, mapping the path,

Caitlin (43:19): and then realizing the fear that underpins the conflict, exploring the path and talking to your parts

James (43:28): and all of this allows you to realize what’s right for you, to become familiar with the sensations of congruence and incongruence, so that you’re ready to take action and kick start the feedback that will lead you out of inner conflict.

Susan (43:45): Following this conclusion of season one, we’ll have a bonus episode that answers your questions about all things torn. So please do send us your questions to info at the torn project.com you this podcast may well have left you thinking about expanding your toolkit around in a conflict. So if you’re interested in knowing more, then check out the show notes for this episode, which includes a transcript and links to helpful resources on our website, www the torn project.com, and please also follow us on Instagram at the torn project for regular Stories, resources and hope for all things in a conflict.

Susan (44:49): The talk podcast is created by Susan, Caitlin, cockerton and James. Thank you to a producer, fincinseller of Flume, creator. To our music composers, Michal michaelaj and Bullock blazchik, to our team of actors, Darren cheek, Natalia Godrich, Jennifer Shea, John Cooter, Baker, Anthony Quinn and Rachel Griffiths, thank you too to all those who have contributed their lived experiences, specialist knowledge and professional support.